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Monday, August 17, 2009

Sex for the First Time

SEX... What does it mean in a relationship? Why don't people seem willing to talk about it? I've had some seriously bad advice from alot of people about "reeling" a guy in by having sex on a third date if you feel a connection. Right... I've had a hard time finding someone I feel that connected to. On Oprah, two teens were grilled about sex and whether or not they had talked about things like frequency, condom use, birth control, how long of a relationship they expect to have after, what they would share with their friends and whether or not they would still want to have sex knowing the answer..

One guy told me he thought it would be fun. Fun? That's it? Then he got angry with me about our BS high school relationship. I don't have to have sex to have fun. Tall wanted to be with me because he thought I was really cute. Really cute? I don't have to have sex to know that I'm "really cute." When my ex, Chris, started talking to me about it, alot of things came up that made me not want to be intimate with him, even though I was away from the Lord. Mainly, he wasn't a long-term relationship guy. I realized that we weren't even close to marriage. Secondly, he told me he had herpes--which you can get even with a condom. I'm not going to risk that much just to keep a man for a short term thing.

Most people don't talk about it, they just make the moves. Maybe because the truth hurts, This relationship might be just for tonight, because I haven't done it in a long time, not that you are really special, it's not like you haven't done it before, it's not like all girls aren't on birth control, right?--and if you don't do it right there definitely won't be another time.

The sexual revolution was supposed to bring freedom from rules.
So why do I feel like the rule is that I have to by the 3rd date?
How many guys will that be before I find someone?
No seriously, how many? 20? 40?
Why am I getting this pressure even from guys who call themselves Christians?
3 dates? 3? Are you joking?
Would any reasonable person go into business with someone that soon?

Having fun and being really cute aren't good enough reasons for me to have sex. It has a higher purpose than that.

I love comments!

37 comments:

urban buddha at 1602 said...

like the blog

Novaseeker said...

You're on the right track, Savvy.

A Christian guy should not be using the three date rule. Sadly Christian men like Regnerus in that CT article are practically endorsing this as a means to get Christian men and women married off, but frankly that's pathetic.

You should stick to your own values. The secular world will persecute you for that, as it has ever done with Christian people. Pray for strength.

The sexual revolution did bring freedom from the old rules, but of course no system exists with no rules at all. Even if you free up a system from legal rules, all that happens is that de facto rules come into being based on strength and so on, as you see in lawless states. In the sexual arena, getting rid of the traditional rules simply ushered in a new "old" set of primitive, jungle-based, rules for sexuality: the rule of the promiscuous and the desirable, and everyone else literally be damned. People like you are on the outs in that system.

But that is not a reason to lose hope. There are many men who are *also* on the outs from that system. The issue is how to put the women like you together with the men like them so that a match of some sort can be found with someone.

I wouldn't bother to keep count of how many men are after you for sex. If you are young and cute and live in a place like LA, it will be countless. In your lifetime, probably hundreds. The issue, though, is for you to be strong and true to your values, which I sense you will be.

SavvyD said...

Thanks Novaseeker, your encouragement means the world to me.

Urbanbuddha1602 Thanks for stopping by!!! Gr8 to see your garden grow. :)

Anonymous said...

We've chatted before.

Ultimately, I think that even most Christian girls will give in to the current system, no matter how much they "dislike" it.

To not ever have a guy is a worse outcome than giving in sexually.

When I tell women that I've waited for marriage (I'm in my early 40s), even Christian women act like there is something wrong with me.

I've had lots of opportunities for premarital sex, but never gave in.

I always thought that this would be a way of proving to my future wife that she would never need to doubt my faithfulness to her. Ha, fat chance.

But though my years of celibacy are pleasing to God (reason enough, yes), but they are of no value to "Godly Women", who would rather have a reformed bad boy than a man who loved God's law enough to follow it.

And before someone gets tempted to throw the old sappy "don't give up!!!" line at me, realize how trite and foolish that sounds.

I'm going to make a generalization, and I'm going to ignore anyone who tells me not to generalize:

The Christian population in the US is comprised pretty much two groups: Christian women who are virgins because they are overweight, and Christian non-virgins.

Prove me wrong.

thefatandskinnyonfashion said...

I agree with novaseeker and you. I don't understand the 3 date rule, and it is very hard to girls like us together with guys who think the same way. I live in the Bible Belt, and it is still hard. I am 22 years old and I can't find a date. Everyone says I am smart and beautiful, but because I don't have sex love will be hard for me to find. I think I was born in the wrong time.

Anonymous said...

"Christian" and Three Date Rule are contradictory. You ran into pretenders, I think. That's certainly not what my Bible tells me about sex outside of marriage.

SavvyD said...

Anon--
Some were indeed pretenders in the faith, some were not Christian. I didn't make that clear. That's what is out there. I'm not going for it either way.

Anon--
Fat or virgin by choice? There are plenty of fat chicks who get plenty of dates. How fat is fat--to you, I mean? Size 2? 4? 6? Drew Barrymore is an 8 and she is told she's fat. How about 10? Too fat? 12--Brooke Sheilds, Marilyn Monroe--what PORKERS!

Rethink. Maybe go after someone much younger. I've met plenty of girls who are still virgins. It's not exactly a polite thing to ask when first getting to know someone.

BeltainAmerica said...

As I see it Savvy dear you are hitting a brick wall of choices.

When Christianity formed its rules of sexual dogma on abstinence before marriage etc the Christian followers had few real choices that shaped their lives. There were also few real choices for life partners and the average person knew from an early age where they were going to live out their lives and how they were going to do it.

Just my opinion but until you find yourself locked into a life and area that you know you will be in for the foreseeable future your not going to be convinced as to the viabillity of a long term relationship.

My only advice to you is to build your life and your house and forget guys and sex. Once you have things the way you want them or going the way you want them you will be amazed when the partner you are looking for fits right in and feels right.

I just don't think you are going to be convinced any relationship will be right until you have all that worked out. But I am only guessing from my views of your writings.

SavvyD said...

Beltain--wouldn't that make me a feminist, career firster? I mean, I never truly wanted that.

BeltainAmerica said...

Not really Savvy

In one sense maybe in that you would have to find a career and place to call home. But not to the point that your job becomes everything you would have that space there just waiting to see who will fill it.

In todays world changes are forced on us so if a man or a woman wish to embrace a more traditional relationship they must first make the environment and space for that type of relationship a reality.

No one man or woman are taught to think like you are these days. Everyone is looking and wondering where do they want to go, where is the best location. So figure it out and start building it and see who joins you.

Its like feeding hummingbirds. You don't look for a hummingbird to feed you put up your feeders and attract the ones who want to live nearbye.

God that sounded like something you would read on a romance card from hallmark.

I need to go vomit now or something.

Anonymous said...

By fat I mean obese.

There are plenty of women who could lose weight who are still completely attractive that way.

I've dated heavier girls who were fun and sweet and had lots of sex appeal. It is true that they would be even more attractive if they lost weight, but I'm not perfect either.

You say go younger. There are so few women who are virgins that a younger one has the ability to get a younger man as well.

I had the misfortune to be born into an era where sexual purity is a quaint, antiquated notion, even among Christians.

Have you seen the statistics about young people who make chastity pledges? They basically go just a couple extra years and end up screwing around anyway.

I may come across as bitter, but what I am is truly, and very deeply hurt by what I see. Every Christian who has sex before marriage deprives their future spouse of their rightful status as their only sexual partner.

The only way out it prayer and repentance, and a determination that they will never put themselves in a place where they can be tempted again.

I could only marry a non-virgin if she was truly regretful for it. If she had a win some, lose some attitude about it I could never get over the hurt.

therealbobthought said...

peer pressure glad i don't have that any more, the sex thing not to worry when it is right, it is right

Novaseeker said...

I think Beltain is basically right as well.

The thing about the 20s these days (and it was even the case in my 20s 15-20 years ago) is that people are not yet settled and are in an extended life transition mode -- for the most part. There are exceptions to that, but for the most part that is how it is in the 20s.

For that reason it can be a very difficult time to find a real relationship. Both men and women are often not very interested in that during this period, again with some exceptions.

A case in point was when I was in law school. There were ~200 people in my year and around 600 or so in the whole school -- kind of the size of a high school, albeit maybe a small one. Anyway, there was a certain amount of hooking up that went on, but very few real relationships -- only a handful that survived law school. That's because it's inherently a time of transition, and most people did not want a relationship bogging down their life choices at that point in their lives. The same thing happens after graduation when people are figuring out their lives --> where do they want to be, what do they want to do, do they want to keep doing what they are doing and so on. Many people do not avoid relationships at this time, but they often do try to keep them "light" so that they can maintain flexibility in their lives, precisely because they are still unsettled as to where they want to be and who they want to be.

I can't say that this is not sensible behavior really. People *do* change a lot between say 21 and 31 -- a whole lot. A totally different perspective, different goals, a more settled persona and so on. So I think what Beltain is suggesting is actually quite good: focus on your life and get that as settled as you would like. It's easier to find people (and they find you, too) after you've done that to some extent -- at least people who are interested in a real relationship rather than "relationship lite".

SavvyD said...

Just so we are clear, and I don't feel guilty if you are misled:

For some this about sex the first time ever. For me I am talking about how just because you have had sex once, there is an underlying assumption that you must do it again and with every person you date. This is often accomplished without discussion of any kind. I regret that person am frustrated with the modern assumptions of dating that are even among alleged Christians.

Anonymous said...

Jerk Anon here:

Just out of curiosity, what value do YOU, Savvy, place on a guy who has saved himself for marriage? How much would that sway your dating/LTR viewpoint. And not assuming all other things equal, assume that the good guy was just a bit less exciting and good looking than the alternative.

Does a man who has followed God's law have value?

Or is it okay that he sowed some oats, just so long as he be faithful going forward from the point you connect with him?

Elusive Wapiti said...

"The sexual revolution was supposed to bring freedom from rules"

The rules that were discarded were the rules that said that men and women (mostly women) shouldn't sleep around before marriage, those that did were sluts, and that monogamy was for losers. Nova has done a great job (as usual) of characterizing what happens to relationships in a "state of nature" vacuum with no rules: the ghetto jungle rules become the default "rules".

Also sexuality is very industrialized now. It's about getting off, and intimacy comes later, if at all.

Neither development is healthy in my book.

I'd also like to echo NS that there are men who do not benefit from said rules. Proportionally, way way more men than women have difficulty finding a date, much less a quality date, as a few "alpha" men diddle the majority of the women. The entire PUA subculture is based on this fact of modern dating life. Theoretically this numerical advantage should make it easier to find a guy who has the discipline to preserve sexuality for marriage. Also, where you live makes a difference too. Mayhaps you are not looking in the correct place.

Hang in there sister. Look with earnest, but hold fast to the Truth. The only person who's opinion counts about your behavior is Him.

"When I tell women that I've waited for marriage (I'm in my early 40s), even Christian women act like there is something wrong with me."

We hear a lot about the madonna-slut double-standard for women. This is one that applies to men...if they haven't had sex, particularly after mid 20s, then they're odd, ambiguously homogamous, or a loser who can't get laid in the eyes of his date.

SavvyD said...

Hello my Anon--I am not clear on if you are the same Anon all the time as there was one who left some derogatory comments. It seems another comment upset him greatly. But lets get back to your question--

I would feel more comfortable with someone who is less experienced--at least I think I would.

I actually faced a situation where I was dating a man who had slept with a high number of women (28) and I had real concerns going forward with him. If he had been talking about marriage it would have been one thing, but he was only my boyfriend and wanted to have sex. Plus, he had herpes.
That kicked off a series of blog entries:
What’s Your Number?

What's your real number

How to get to a high number

With my ex there were far too many warning signs indicating that this would not be heading toward marriage. He was and remains unrepentant despite singing in his church choir every Sunday.

I was quite far from the Lord grappling with issues of sexual intimacy. I did not fall at that time and am quite glad.

Anonymous said...

Derogatory?

Ok. One man's derogatory is another man's painful, painful reality.

To go further with the question:

Suppose the guy with 28 conquests was serious about marriage and suppose he was free of any disease.

Isn't the 28-count a deal-breaker?

Right now I'm contemplating whether to bang my head against the nearest concrete surface or not.

I suppose it is possible that the Lord has some reward in store for me for practicing massive restraint all these years. I used to think it would be the pure love of a Christian woman.

They say that unmarried men have a demonstrably shorter life expectancy than married ones. This is what you call the 'silver lining'.

SavvyD said...

Anon--I would be a little overwhelmed by hearing this. But I would rather forgive and be married to someone who had made mistakes and repented than to be single and alone. I've made quite a few mistakes in my life and I would want forgiveness for those things. The man I dealt with did indeed have herpes and was best at short- term relationships.

My standards when I was young were much different and when I was a virgin, I most certainly expected my husband to be also. I was quite naive about it.


It was on another post where another Anon called the previous poster a c-nt for misandry.

SavvyD said...

And as I'm writing this I feel a deep pain that I might not be good enough for this guy up in Seattle and wonder if there will ever be anyone for me. Perhaps that's why I would be willing to forgive someone. I've received lots of attention and offers for things I don't want, so I'm quite distressed. After all my trials, I've often wondered, Anon, like you if there shouldn't be a reward for me--say the love of a good man who respects me.

SavvyD said...

I mean, a good Godly Christian man who respects me, maybe has similar taste in music and is somewhat attractive to me at least.

Anonymous said...

You have put this in terms of 'forgiveness' before. I do not feel the same way at all. The bible says guilty of one sin guilty of all.

The issue of previous sexual conquests is understanding that the person in question has created spiritual/sexual bonds with all their previous partners. This is not about forgiveness for me.

Could I marry a woman who had slept with 28 guys?

The problem is not one of me sitting in judgment of her, that is unbiblical.

The problem is that I would have deep and legitimate concerns about her capacity to emotionally and sexually bond to me. Yeah, sounds all touchy-feely for a guy to say that, but there it is.

I would be very concerned that she would not really be 'mine'.

See what I mean? For me it is not about forgiveness. It is about wanting to avoid a heartache even greater than being alone.

All women can offer the mechanical aspect of sex to a man. But so can an inflatable "love" doll (quite an ironic term, no?).

One of the pickup artist blogs talked about how much they love sex, as he puts it "the love of a woman, freely given", which is why they don't really prefer hookers.

But for me, it would be the love of a Christian woman, freely given, enthusiastically, and to me only. You should want the same for yourself.

I sincerely believe that a person with 28 notches on the bedpost has limited capability to deliver on that. Could there be exceptions? Of course. But what are the odds?

Bad Anon

Sanctum's Muse said...

To Anon:

My husband was a virgin when I met him; I am the only woman he has ever kissed and has ever taken to bed. To this day, I still treasure his love and purity. I feel extremely lucky to have him.

I wish I could say he's the only man I've ever kissed, but that's not so. I had several boyfriends throughout high school and did some things with them that I'm not particularly proud of. I still saved my virginity for my husband, but I cannot say with a clear conscience that I was "pure." I have to live with the knowledge of that inequality.

Fortunately, I repented first to God, and later to my husband before we were married, and they both forgave me. Today, we do not dwell on the past; what matters is our love for each other today, which is strong, healthy, and out of this world. I do not take this wonderful gift for granted; I serve my husband as the Bible says I should, with patience and a gentle spirit. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably feel discouraged as well, but take hope in that purity and true love is still possible in this modern world.

To Savvy:

Don't ever feel as if you don't deserve someone. If God has forgiven you for your past sins, then you are "whiter than snow." You deserve the best that God has for you; don't settle for anything less! Life is too short and too hard to bear that kind of regret.

SavvyD said...

Anon: God can change people, so can circumstances, prescription medications, alchoholism and getting into illicit drugs.

If people can change for bad, then they can change for good.

There have been plenty of cases where people were virgins when they married but then cheated on a spouse repeatedly later on. It is not a guarantee.

Don't focus on a number (4 vs. 28) or an event. You said you would be OK if someone had repented--those were your words a few comments back--it seems that you are of two minds about it. Repentance on their part means forgiveness on your part. Either you mean it or you don't.

Professor Hale said...

3 date rule? There is a rule? Why don't people tell me these things?

When you are single, the only reason you should have sex is because YOU want to. Not because of a rule or because anyone expects you to. When you are married, you get the additional burden to sometimes give it up when you don't particularly feel like it.

But as a single woman, there should be no expectation of automatic sexual activity. Granted, men have been trained otherwise and the trend as you get older will be for men to expect it more often than not, except those who know you. Dating is all about getting to know you and your views on sexual activity are likely to come up, in conversation or in practice.

The added difficulty is that potentialy good men may believe you are not interested in them romantically if you refuse their advances. I would recommend a short explanation that you refuse everyone.

Anonymous said...

You are hung up on this forgiveness thing.

You are implying that I am withholding forgiveness, which is a serious charge to make against me, since it is untrue.

It is not my place to forgive. That is between them and God.

But forgiveness and involvement are two different things.

Suppose someone had been very dishonest in business, and had cheated me out of money (not comparing this to premarital, stay with me).

Then they repent, and I forgive them. Does my forgiveness of them imply that I am required to re-enter business relations with them? No, it does not.

Forgiveness is different than that.

If a pastor commits adultery a bunch of times and repents, is he still fit for the ministry? See what I mean? The congregation can forgive him, but he is compromised as a spiritual leader, and should yield the pulpit to someone else.

So once again:
It has nothing to do with forgiveness, stop putting words in my mouth.

It has to do with the spiritual damage of multiple partners, and that does not necessarily get undone at the moment of repentance.

The spiritual healing from that kind of act may take a lifetime, and I don't necessarily want to deal with it.


This has NOTHING TO DO WITH me not forgiving. It is about avoiding a situation wherein I marry someone who is not in the capacity to bond with me due to multiple spiritual bondings with others.

Please stop accusing me of unforgiveness.

It has to do with me avoiding the soul-deadening outcome of dealing with someone who is still spiritually attached to others, unless god has broken those ties, but how to know?

Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Tech said...

The Christian population in the US is comprised pretty much two groups: Christian women who are virgins because they are overweight, and Christian non-virgins.

Prove me wrong.


I disagree. Overweight Christian women aren't virgins either.

Seriously, women in Churches are like women everywhere else. Over the age of 20 or so (probably younger) there aren't any female virgins. (There are male virgins as with like the rest of society, there are lots of men who are totally ignored by women.)

When I tell women that I've waited for marriage (I'm in my early 40s), even Christian women act like there is something wrong with me.

I have noticed the same thing. (Except that I'm 31, never had any opportunities for pre-marital sex, and don't tell anyone that for this very reason.) You would think that women in Church would at least treat guys who haven't had sex decently, but they are just like women outside of Church.

And before someone gets tempted to throw the old sappy "don't give up!!!" line at me, realize how trite and foolish that sounds.

Yes, anyone who says that is trite and foolish. The fact is that there isn't someone for everyone. God respects free will so there is no guarantee that God will deliver you a wife even if God wants to.

SavvyD said...

Anon & PMAFT

I'm sorry that you have been mistreated. I know how lonely it is not to be able to fine a suitable partner.

I can only give my perspective from my understanding and my opinion as a blogger and as a woman. I'm human, I've made several significant mistakes in my life. I would hope that a man would still be able to accept me.

As for the overweight girls, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

As for Christian vs. girls in the world, I hear different things from different people. On of my friends at church was saying that people are so inexperienced it gets in their way. We are dealing with experiences and opinions.

Personally I would really appreciate the sacrifice it takes to stay pure. It is a rare gift that few appreciate.

Pro-Male/Anti-Feminist Tech said...

Savvy,

I don't think you're getting it. This isn't about forgiveness or understanding on my part. Women's sins in this area weren't done against me so there is nothing for me to forgive. That's between them and God as Anon already pointed out.

The issue for me at least is practical. How can a woman who had sex with many guys bond with me? How can a woman who views me as a loser or worse for THINGS I DIDN'T HAVE ANY CONTROL OVER accept me for who I am?

One thing I have noticed is that the more sex partners a woman has the less able she is to be able to relate to me at all. Since I'm at zero sex partners that doesn't take much. As I have gotten older its a problem that has only gotten worse.

On of my friends at church was saying that people are so inexperienced it gets in their way.

Gets in the way of what? Even if we assume this is something other than hate against the inexperienced, what is the inexperienced man supposed to do about it? All this means that the inexperienced man is in the situation of can't get a job without experience, can't get experience without a job.

Personally I would really appreciate the sacrifice it takes to stay pure.

There was no sacrifice on my part. When you have no women ever interested in you, it's incredibly easy to remain "pure".

SavvyD said...

There was no sacrifice on my part. When you have no women ever interested in you, it's incredibly easy to remain "pure".

That was more for Anon.

On of my friends at church was saying that people are so inexperienced it gets in their way.

Gets in the way of what?


That was what he said. I would need to ask him about it.

Personally, I'm in the category of not being a virgin, having repented, and staying pure before and since and not having that much appreciated by either the total virgin crowd or the experienced crowed so I feel caught in the middle of issues that.

SavvyD said...

Plus right now I am on Xanax because I was almost in a car accident. I breaked really hard to avoid the woman. There was no damage to the vehicles but I still got whiplash. Right now I'm hurtin.

vanover521 said...

holy turbo lots of comments. but i totally agree with you. completely.

3rd date? ridiculous.

Anonymous said...

It's a new Anonymous here! You can call me Lady Anon :)

I came across this blog and just felt compelled to say a few things.

First of all,

Savvy- you are adorable.

PMAF-You actually scare me with all your anti-feminist crap. I don't buy the whole "There was no sacrifice on my part. When you have no women ever interested in you, it's incredibly easy to remain "pure". that's just like saying you blame women for your inadequacies. Maybe you don't bring anything to the table? I don't know, get some cool hobbies, get a sense of humor, maybe a nice job, maybe stop writing an ANTI-FEMINIST BLOG?!?. There are lots of reasons why people fall in love and I believe it has less to do with physical attraction than most people think... especially the older you get. You just seem very spiteful to me.

and Original Anon- You say you can forgive, but I just think you have a hard time not passing judgement, probably why you are in your 40s and haven't let anyone close enough to you to entertain the idea of marriage. (and that's just my assumption I don't know anything about your dating life.) But like Savvy said people can change for good just as they can for bad. God may teach you some lessons and open some doors if you stop passing judgement and take a chance.

I go to a lovely church (one of the largest growing churches in the US) and my pastor openly speaks about the fact that he was not a virgin before he became a Christian. Honestly he and his wife have one of the strongest marriages and families I have EVER seen. What if his wife had the same sort of judgmental views like a few of you here? There certainly would be no great marriage and its arguable there would be no great foundation for an amazing church. Just saying.....

Alright, peace out.

Channah said...

Hello!
I just came across this blog and I like it a whole lot.

I am just adding my own 50 cents and I havent really taken the time out to ready everybody's comments. I think the dialogue is healthy and where is that, there are healthy brains that are jogging through the different issues.

Well, the sexual revolution, I am not sure it really hit my part of the world (Zimbabwe/South Africa)but one things for sure sex outside of marriage has had its rammifications.

One things for sure, in my experiences once you start sleeping with the guy, be it your 6th or 3rd date, something changes. His instinctive nature to pursue you somehow takes a dip. He is not as enamoured by you as he was previously because you have given him your goods outside of the boundaries rather outside of the safety net that had been created. And its an intangible thing, but it happens!

And I have seen too many people die from HIV/AIDS to see the reality and rammifications sexually promiscuous activities, but in the West, and according to what I have heard from friends/relatives HIV/AIDS is a different reality.

All I am saying is God knew what He was doing. And that within rules and commandments that He specifies there is freedom to live a long long life. At the same time, the reality is a large portion of Christians are sexually active.

Thankyou for this lovely blog!

todaystatus said...

You know what I think that people are using sex to compensate for their inadequacies outside of the bed room. Some people know that the only place they are good at is in the bed room and they have nothing else to offer in terms of what it means to be a in a healthly, loving, nuturing, (mentally) stimulating, vibrant relationship so they shift all the attention to where they know (or where they think rather) they can work their magic. People have begun to invest so much time in having sex that they've become experts but are complete and utter failures at real relationships.I fear we've gotten to a place where the true meaning, definition and understanding of what love is has become so blurred that these days it means sex. Please don't get me started!! LOL

SavvyD said...

Wow! I love when I have visits from Africans! It's so cool! Makes me think of Taire Babs in Lagos Lagos! Thank you Channah for the insightful comment.

TS--I think you are onto something. Many people even skip the relationship altogether.

groupspostings said...

OP,
Were you serious when you said you'd prefer a guy with SOME experience?

You -- a Christian woman - actually think a single never-married Christian man is a "loser" if he hasn't had SOME sex????

This boggles the mind and is in support of what Anonymous is posting.

Christians are taught to abstain from sex while single.
Many shy guys haven't had a lot of opportunities.

Many Good Guys, who may not be so strong in their Christian faith, think they'd find a Good sweet Christian girl in church -- better than the bar route. There, they'd be open to getting stronger in their faith.

Yet once they get to the church, those "sweet Christian girls" INSIST the guys have some experience?

Where is Christ's love there?

I've long defended virgins in these web forums and dismissed their fears that they'll be "laughed at" or "made to feel low" if the girl their dating learns they're virgins.
I tell them to try the church singles groups as Christian women would be more understanding.
But they tell me those "Christian" woman aren't much different from women in the world.

This is mind-boggling.

I honestly hope you, as a Christian lady wouldn't pass them over and instead go for the guys who haven't shown restraint and taken advantage of opportunities "Christian" women gave them to abuse their vaginas... something the virgin Good Guys would never do...